A Suggestion For Null Routes

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gamemann
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A Suggestion For Null Routes

Post by gamemann »

Hello, I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this (I apologize if it isn't), but I will anyway. I did send in a support ticket a while ago about this issue, but nothing was done.

Recently, many of my servers have been null routed (if you're servers are in Chicago, the network lag you may have experienced recently is most likely from my servers that are being null routed by a script kiddie).

Is it possible to automatically reboot the servers after the null route expires? I came home from school today and 3/4 of my servers were down for 12 hours because somebody is required to manually reboot them after the null expires. When I asked about this in a ticket, the response was something like "There is no way to tell whether the server is down from null routes or not", which I highly doubt.

I hope John addresses this suggestion.

Thanks.
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Re: A Suggestion For Null Routes

Post by Edge100x »

I haven't seen another customer mention this yet, but you've suggested this before personally. It's not currently planned, as it would be complicated to implement and rarely comes up, because null-routes are still uncommon. It's also not clear that it would be a good idea, as we want customers to be actively involved in reacting to null-routed attacks -- these are a huge deal because they impact the entire location, and we can't underline that enough. Having everything run on autopilot would enable customers to shrug them off to some extent.

Your attacks today have been highly damaging.
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Re: A Suggestion For Null Routes

Post by soja »

We already shrug off getting null routed. Why should this require customer intervention? I know one of my servers has been nulled, but there isn't anything I can do. When my null is lifted at 6am and I am not up to reboot it, or I have other things going on, why should my server have more downtime than it already has?

It isn't like we ask for these attacks, we don't do anything that would upset people or our members like profiting off our community, we don't allow pay for admin, and we do our best to address admin reports.

The downside of having a large community with thousands of daily visitors, we get attacked for no reason.

I wish null routes were rare for us, one of my GMOD servers has been nulled 22 times in 5 months.
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Edge100x
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Re: A Suggestion For Null Routes

Post by Edge100x »

Sadly, there is always a reason. It's not always a good reason -- usually it's because a kid wants attention. It is very rare to have an attack with nobody taking credit and nobody in the community talking to the attacker.

You are definitely more of a target than 99.9%+ of our customers.
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Re: A Suggestion For Null Routes

Post by TacTicToe »

Null routes suck, no doubt about it. Had one of our IPs nulled a couple of times recently. No idea who it was or why. Seen a lot off DDoS attacks lately, especially it seems in the Atlanta datacenter. I don't recall having to restart any of my servers though. Did I miss something?
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Re: A Suggestion For Null Routes

Post by soja »

TacTicToe wrote:Null routes suck, no doubt about it. Had one of our IPs nulled a couple of times recently. No idea who it was or why. Seen a lot off DDoS attacks lately, especially it seems in the Atlanta datacenter. I don't recall having to restart any of my servers though. Did I miss something?
Maybe it is an issue with managed? All of our servers are managed.
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Re: A Suggestion For Null Routes

Post by Edge100x »

Yes, soja, you're thinking of the system restarting your servers when they stop responding, and then turning them off when they continue to not respond (because we know that it frequently means they are in a crash loop).
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Abdul
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Re: A Suggestion For Null Routes

Post by Abdul »

Although it isn't exactly what you are asking for - are you not able to use the Scheduled Restarts (in the Server Control tab)? Simply have it automatically restart just after the null route is expected to be lifted. I think this is probably the best alternative.
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Re: A Suggestion For Null Routes

Post by sewi »

gamemann wrote:if you're servers are in Chicago, the network lag you may have experienced recently is most likely from my servers that are being null routed
Here is the thing. I am not sure if I detect a sense of "pride" in your statement, but if there is any, it is quite misplaced. Frankly, I don't find it particularly funny if my community has to put up with a completely unplayable game because someone else is getting nuked into the ground after school over and over and over.


I realize you hardly attacked yourself, however instead of pride, I would expect to see a "oh my gosh guys, I am so sorry for all the trouble, I'm trying my utmost to get this fixed, but I keep getting attacked, please bear with me just a bit more, I got this".

Which would make me sympathize so much more than hearing "saw some lag? well in case you were wondering, it was because of my servers getting attacked. btw, it's happening so much, it's getting a drag to reboot the server manually. i hope john addresses this."


Yes, anyone can be a target, including myself. Which means I can see your side. However, I can also see the side of nfoservers (and their difficult situation of keeping DDoS targets their customers, while at the same time keeping the other affected customers their customers as well). And certainly, I can see the side of an unrelated third party getting dragged into your feud.

In a way, nfoservers protecting DDoS targets does show other customers they have some kind of safety in case they get targeted themselves. At the same time, I can't help but feel as if DDoS targets should do something to mitigate the effects too - soothen things down, take yourself out of the line of fire, get dedicated protection - and not just sit back and wait for the next nuke to slam the network down.

I've read a posts in various forums, where skiddies were teasing each other back and forth, until one started nuking the other. I'm not sure how much understanding other customers who try not to aggravate can muster for the former.
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Re: A Suggestion For Null Routes

Post by wweram675 »

sewi wrote: Frankly, I don't find it particularly funny if my community has to put up with a completely unplayable game because someone else is getting nuked into the ground after school over and over and over.
You should consider yourself lucky your servers aren't null-routed for 8-12 hours, and that once gamemann's servers go down, yours can be played again. No one wants to be DDoSed, and what you quoted from gamemann was not him taking pride in "oh my servers are so popular they get DDoSed weekly" It was obviously sarcasm at the fact that Internap can't get its stuff together to help prevent these things as well. And I don't see why he wouldn't have the right to be upset, he is paying for a premium service that is being interrupted, which is also leaving the substantial number of players that play and support the servers upset. So while you're upset that you can't play because you're not being attacked and you're servers are not null-routed for hours, he's upset that he is being attacked.

How "funny" would you find it if your servers were being attacked? No one here would find it funny, so stop acting like its his or NFO's or anyone-that-is-here-on-this-forum's fault.
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Re: A Suggestion For Null Routes

Post by IcEWoLF »

8 hours of null route...who is going to pay for this? The customers...SJ is becoming an awful location to be in.
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Re: A Suggestion For Null Routes

Post by Edge100x »

IcEWoLF, your null isn't really related to the other posts in this thread.

SJ overall sees few attacks and few null-routes, thankfully. I haven't really seen others besides you attacked there.

The person triggering an attack (literally) pays something for it, often, to the "booter" author. It is sad that there is a market for this thing and that there is a strong incentive for them to continue to expand their attack networks.

NFO also "pays" far more than any individual customer (or anyone paying for a booter) because when a customer needs to be null-routed, there is always collateral damage, and because we have to sink such tremendous time and resources into fighting attacks on behalf of our customers. DDoS handling is literally at least half of what I do and has been for a very long time -- my task list is highly backed up because of it. And we don't even call ourselves a DDoS mitigation specialist host.

I really can't overstate how terrible null-routes are. The target simply sees it as an event in his or her control panel, crabs, and moves on after it expires, while we have to deal with the real fallout.
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Re: A Suggestion For Null Routes

Post by TacTicToe »

soja wrote:Maybe it is an issue with managed? All of our servers are managed.
That would make sense. I always go the un-managed route so I can install everything I need/want. With what we pay for a box, I prefer to have full access, even if it means I have to update everything. One of the reasons I shy away from Valve games, the frequency of updates. :?
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Re: A Suggestion For Null Routes

Post by IcEWoLF »

Edge100x wrote:IcEWoLF, your null isn't really related to the other posts in this thread.

SJ overall sees few attacks and few null-routes, thankfully. I haven't really seen others besides you attacked there.

The person triggering an attack (literally) pays something for it, often, to the "booter" author. It is sad that there is a market for this thing and that there is a strong incentive for them to continue to expand their attack networks.

NFO also "pays" far more than any individual customer (or anyone paying for a booter) because when a customer needs to be null-routed, there is always collateral damage, and because we have to sink such tremendous time and resources into fighting attacks on behalf of our customers. DDoS handling is literally at least half of what I do and has been for a very long time -- my task list is highly backed up because of it. And we don't even call ourselves a DDoS mitigation specialist host.

I really can't overstate how terrible null-routes are. The target simply sees it as an event in his or her control panel, crabs, and moves on after it expires, while we have to deal with the real fallout.
Is it an automated system that does the null routing or do you usually review everything before null routing?
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Re: A Suggestion For Null Routes

Post by rustydusty1717 »

Manual process.
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